[conlang_learners] shortlist
Olivier Simon
cafaristeir at yahoo.com
Mon Jun 15 00:51:07 PDT 2009
Sellamat
--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Dayle Hill <dwhmusic32 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
From: Dayle Hill <dwhmusic32 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [conlang_learners] shortlist
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 11:43 PM
Is there a short list with links in production for suggested languages? I'd like to begin looking at them?
"Can the future really be predicted? Even those who claim that they can, look both ways before they cross the road"!
--- On Mon, 15/6/09, conlang_learners-request at conlang.org <conlang_learners-request at conlang.org> wrote:
From: conlang_learners-request at conlang.org <conlang_learners-request at conlang.org>
Subject: conlang_learners Digest, Vol 1, Issue 18
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Date: Monday, 15 June, 2009, 6:46 AM
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Today's Topics:
1. If you get scared off, please come back in September.
(Brett Williams)
2. Re: IE vs non IE (Arthaey Angosii)
3. Re: IE vs non IE (Jim Henry)
4. Re: IE vs non IE (Jim Henry)
5. Re: IE vs non IE (Olivier Simon)
6. Re: IE vs non IE (Olivier Simon)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:14:02 -0400
From: Brett Williams <mungojelly at gmail.com>
Subject: [conlang_learners] If you get scared off, please come back in
September.
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Message-ID:
<a0efdb610906141214s38f7b999r1c74cdf20d07d1d6 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hello, as the originator of this project, I would like to thank all of
you for being here, and I'd especially like to thank Jim Henry for the
work he's done organizing this list.
I have just one request of y'all: If you get overwhelmed by the
character or volume of the conversation on this list and feel the need
to drop off, could you please consider coming back again late August
or the beginning of September, to vote and to participate in the
beginning of the project itself?
I'm hoping that the conversation here will be a respectful and a
productive one. For instance, we're already contacting the creators
of languages to see if they'd be willing to teach them, and otherwise
debating and testing the practicality of various options-- the list
thus produced, of potentially-learnable languages, I hope will be
useful not just for choosing which language we'll all study starting
in September, and not just for future rounds of this game (maybe again
next year?), but also as a sort of catalog to anyone who's interested
in studying an obscure conlang.
This is all just preparation, though, and there's the danger that the
conversation could become heated. So just please make sure you're
around when it's time for the game itself, when there will be less
argument/debate and more collective fun.
<3,
Brett
aka
bret-ram
aka
la stela selckiku
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:03:49 -0700
From: Arthaey Angosii <arthaey at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Message-ID:
<fee2da410906141603u321cb60fw1026ad1cd9683be3 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
English is my native language and Spanish is the only other language I
can hold a conversation in. So while my artlang Asha'ille is a priori,
I'm "concerned" that it adheres too closely to whatever makes IE
languages look IE.
What are the defining characteristics of an Indo-European language,
con- or natlang? (Apart from shared vocabulary/etymology, of course.)
What grammatical features make a language IE-like? Are those features
found also in non-IE languages?
--
AA
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:03:06 -0400
From: Jim Henry <jimhenry1973 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Message-ID:
<8e02713f0906141703v1ce1f0b5uae8518548faa40c6 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Arthaey Angosii<arthaey at gmail.com> wrote:
> What are the defining characteristics of an Indo-European language,
> con- or natlang? (Apart from shared vocabulary/etymology, of course.)
> What grammatical features make a language IE-like? Are those features
> found also in non-IE languages?
This isn't exactly the same thing you were asking about, but there was
a thread on the CONLANG list in April 2008 on "Standard Average
European" -- SAE being a sprachbund that includes most Western IE
languages and some non-IE languages whose grammar has apparently been
somewhat influenced by IE neighbors, like Maltese and Hungarian.
Someone linked the Wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European
and most of the remainder of the thread was devoted to discussing said
article and its assertions.
As far as I know, the *defining* characteristic of an IE language is
purely and simply that it's descended from Proto-IE. That is, most
of the similarities one can find between all the langs of the entire
family are lexical. Morphologically and syntactically, there's a fair
bit of diversity within the family (somewhat less apparently within
the SAE sprachbund), but all the languages that retain any vestige of
the original IE case system, as far as I know, are accusative rather
than ergative or active or tripartite, and if they have other cases
left it's typically things like genitive, dative, instrumental --
without e.g. the kinds of fine-grained local cases you find in Finnish
or Tabassaran, or two distinct cases for alienable or inalienable
genitive, or other interesting things you find elsewhere... There's
a variety of word orders within the family, VSO and SVO and SOV, but
no OVS or VOS or OSV langs (of course those are rare in nearly all
language families). Having a copula verb is pretty common throughout
the IE family although in some languages (Russian, colloquial French)
it has become optional in some contexts, i.e. you can do
complete-sentence predication with just a noun and an adjective in
some registers or some tenses.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:14:25 -0400
From: Jim Henry <jimhenry1973 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Message-ID:
<8e02713f0906141714m3f2bf17dkb5deb92433d017ef at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Arthaey Angosii<arthaey at gmail.com> wrote:
> English is my native language and Spanish is the only other language I
> can hold a conversation in. So while my artlang Asha'ille is a priori,
> I'm "concerned" that it adheres too closely to whatever makes IE
> languages look IE.
I've just been reviewing your Asha'ille grammar, and I'd say that
several important aspects of it -- the noun inflection, the
indifferent marking of direct and indirect objects, the negative verb
inflection, the two optional verb marking systems with affixes vs.
particles, and (especially) the deictic system are unlike any IE
language I'm familiar with.
--
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:30:13 -0700 (PDT)
From: Olivier Simon <cafaristeir at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Message-ID: <928955.28119.qm at web57403.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Sellamat Arthaey !
?
I see that Jim has already given you a good answer, thus I've got little to add.
It's good to put the vocabulary issue apart from the grammar issue. To speak simply, I would say there are two important criteria to characterize
--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Arthaey Angosii <arthaey at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Arthaey Angosii <arthaey at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 4:03 PM
English is my native language and Spanish is the only other language I
can hold a conversation in. So while my artlang Asha'ille is a priori,
I'm "concerned" that it adheres too closely to whatever makes IE
languages look IE.
What are the defining characteristics of an Indo-European language,
con- or natlang? (Apart from shared vocabulary/etymology, of course.)
What grammatical features make a language IE-like? Are those features
found also in non-IE languages?
--
AA
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Message: 6
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:46:33 -0700 (PDT)
From: Olivier Simon <cafaristeir at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Message-ID: <91374.43466.qm at web57415.mail.re1.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Still those technical problems ! I hope Yahoo Mail is not against IE languages
So, I told there are two criteria that can be used to characterize an IE grammar:
- Presence of flexion (this criterium is common with Semitic). Even Modern IE languages still retain some traces.
Examples: Eng. foot = plural: feet
French: "mourir" (to die) = but "il meurt" (he dies)
- The neutral gender has similar forms at the nominative and the accusative.. This may come from the fact that Primeval IE had no Nominative for the neutral gender.
?
Some auxlangs can have their entire vocabulary from IE but they may not fullfill these criteria. I think at Uropi which is not IE grammatically speaking. On the contrary C.Quil?s (of the Dnghu Project which aims a revival of Old IE) admitted that Sambahsa has a IE grammar.
Sambahsa is, with Frenkish, the only auxlang which makes use of Ablauts (flexion within a stem) but in Sambahsa, this system is regular.
?
Jim was right to point out the difference between IE and "Standard Average European".
?
Personnally, I strove to include Sprachbund features into Sambahsa, from the SAE as well as from the Balkan Sprachbund.
?
Olivier
http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/
--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Olivier Simon <cafaristeir at yahoo.com> wrote:
From: Olivier Simon <cafaristeir at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 10:30 PM
Sellamat Arthaey !
?
I see that Jim has already given you a good answer, thus I've got little to add.
It's good to put the vocabulary issue apart from the grammar issue. To speak simply, I would say there are two important criteria to characterize
--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Arthaey Angosii <arthaey at gmail.com> wrote:
From: Arthaey Angosii <arthaey at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 4:03 PM
English is my native language and Spanish is the only other language I
can hold a conversation in. So while my artlang Asha'ille is a priori,
I'm "concerned" that it adheres too closely to whatever makes IE
languages look IE.
What are the defining characteristics of an Indo-European language,
con- or natlang? (Apart from shared vocabulary/etymology, of course.)
What grammatical features make a language IE-like? Are those features
found also in non-IE languages?
--
AA
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