<table cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0" border="0" ><tr><td valign="top" style="font: inherit;">Is there a short list with links in production for suggested languages? I'd like to begin looking at them?<BR><BR>
<DIV><FONT face="comic sans ms" color=#6000bf size=4>"Can the future really be predicted? Even those who claim that they can, look both ways before they cross the road"!</FONT></DIV><BR><BR>--- On <B>Mon, 15/6/09, conlang_learners-request@conlang.org <I><conlang_learners-request@conlang.org></I></B> wrote:<BR>
<BLOCKQUOTE style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: rgb(16,16,255) 2px solid"><BR>From: conlang_learners-request@conlang.org <conlang_learners-request@conlang.org><BR>Subject: conlang_learners Digest, Vol 1, Issue 18<BR>To: conlang_learners@conlang.org<BR>Date: Monday, 15 June, 2009, 6:46 AM<BR><BR>
<DIV class=plainMail>Send conlang_learners mailing list submissions to<BR> <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR><BR>To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit<BR> <A href="http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/conlang_learners-conlang.org" target=_blank>http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/conlang_learners-conlang.org</A><BR>or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to<BR> <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners-request@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners-request@conlang.org">conlang_learners-request@conlang.org</A><BR><BR>You can reach the person managing the list at<BR> <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners-owner@conlang.org"
ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners-owner@conlang.org">conlang_learners-owner@conlang.org</A><BR><BR>When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific<BR>than "Re: Contents of conlang_learners digest..."<BR><BR><BR>Today's Topics:<BR><BR> 1. If you get scared off, please come back in September.<BR> (Brett Williams)<BR> 2. Re: IE vs non IE (Arthaey Angosii)<BR> 3. Re: IE vs non IE (Jim Henry)<BR> 4. Re: IE vs non IE (Jim Henry)<BR> 5. Re: IE vs non IE (Olivier Simon)<BR> 6. Re: IE vs non IE (Olivier Simon)<BR><BR><BR>----------------------------------------------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 1<BR>Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 15:14:02 -0400<BR>From: Brett Williams <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=mungojelly@gmail.com"
ymailto="mailto:mungojelly@gmail.com">mungojelly@gmail.com</A>><BR>Subject: [conlang_learners] If you get scared off, please come back in<BR> September.<BR>To: <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=a0efdb610906141214s38f7b999r1c74cdf20d07d1d6@mail.gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:a0efdb610906141214s38f7b999r1c74cdf20d07d1d6@mail.gmail.com">a0efdb610906141214s38f7b999r1c74cdf20d07d1d6@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>Hello, as the originator of this project, I would like to thank all of<BR>you for being here, and I'd especially like to thank Jim Henry for the<BR>work he's done organizing this list.<BR><BR>I have just one request of y'all: If you get overwhelmed
by the<BR>character or volume of the conversation on this list and feel the need<BR>to drop off, could you please consider coming back again late August<BR>or the beginning of September, to vote and to participate in the<BR>beginning of the project itself?<BR><BR>I'm hoping that the conversation here will be a respectful and a<BR>productive one. For instance, we're already contacting the creators<BR>of languages to see if they'd be willing to teach them, and otherwise<BR>debating and testing the practicality of various options-- the list<BR>thus produced, of potentially-learnable languages, I hope will be<BR>useful not just for choosing which language we'll all study starting<BR>in September, and not just for future rounds of this game (maybe again<BR>next year?), but also as a sort of catalog to anyone who's interested<BR>in studying an obscure conlang.<BR><BR>This is all just preparation, though, and there's the danger that the<BR>conversation
could become heated. So just please make sure you're<BR>around when it's time for the game itself, when there will be less<BR>argument/debate and more collective fun.<BR><BR><3,<BR>Brett<BR>aka<BR>bret-ram<BR>aka<BR>la stela selckiku<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 2<BR>Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 16:03:49 -0700<BR>From: Arthaey Angosii <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthaey@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:arthaey@gmail.com">arthaey@gmail.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE<BR>To: <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=fee2da410906141603u321cb60fw1026ad1cd9683be3@mail.gmail.com"
ymailto="mailto:fee2da410906141603u321cb60fw1026ad1cd9683be3@mail.gmail.com">fee2da410906141603u321cb60fw1026ad1cd9683be3@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8<BR><BR>English is my native language and Spanish is the only other language I<BR>can hold a conversation in. So while my artlang Asha'ille is a priori,<BR>I'm "concerned" that it adheres too closely to whatever makes IE<BR>languages look IE.<BR><BR>What are the defining characteristics of an Indo-European language,<BR>con- or natlang? (Apart from shared vocabulary/etymology, of course.)<BR>What grammatical features make a language IE-like? Are those features<BR>found also in non-IE languages?<BR><BR><BR>--<BR>AA<BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 3<BR>Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:03:06 -0400<BR>From: Jim Henry <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jimhenry1973@gmail.com"
ymailto="mailto:jimhenry1973@gmail.com">jimhenry1973@gmail.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE<BR>To: <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=8e02713f0906141703v1ce1f0b5uae8518548faa40c6@mail.gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:8e02713f0906141703v1ce1f0b5uae8518548faa40c6@mail.gmail.com">8e02713f0906141703v1ce1f0b5uae8518548faa40c6@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Arthaey Angosii<<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthaey@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:arthaey@gmail.com">arthaey@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR>> What are the defining characteristics of an Indo-European language,<BR>> con- or natlang? (Apart from shared
vocabulary/etymology, of course.)<BR>> What grammatical features make a language IE-like? Are those features<BR>> found also in non-IE languages?<BR><BR>This isn't exactly the same thing you were asking about, but there was<BR>a thread on the CONLANG list in April 2008 on "Standard Average<BR>European" -- SAE being a sprachbund that includes most Western IE<BR>languages and some non-IE languages whose grammar has apparently been<BR>somewhat influenced by IE neighbors, like Maltese and Hungarian.<BR>Someone linked the Wikipedia article<BR><BR><A href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European" target=_blank>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Average_European</A><BR><BR>and most of the remainder of the thread was devoted to discussing said<BR>article and its assertions.<BR><BR>As far as I know, the *defining* characteristic of an IE language is<BR>purely and simply that it's descended from Proto-IE. That is,
most<BR>of the similarities one can find between all the langs of the entire<BR>family are lexical. Morphologically and syntactically, there's a fair<BR>bit of diversity within the family (somewhat less apparently within<BR>the SAE sprachbund), but all the languages that retain any vestige of<BR>the original IE case system, as far as I know, are accusative rather<BR>than ergative or active or tripartite, and if they have other cases<BR>left it's typically things like genitive, dative, instrumental --<BR>without e.g. the kinds of fine-grained local cases you find in Finnish<BR>or Tabassaran, or two distinct cases for alienable or inalienable<BR>genitive, or other interesting things you find elsewhere... There's<BR>a variety of word orders within the family, VSO and SVO and SOV, but<BR>no OVS or VOS or OSV langs (of course those are rare in nearly all<BR>language families). Having a copula verb is pretty common
throughout<BR>the IE family although in some languages (Russian, colloquial French)<BR>it has become optional in some contexts, i.e. you can do<BR>complete-sentence predication with just a noun and an adjective in<BR>some registers or some tenses.<BR><BR>-- <BR>Jim Henry<BR><A href="http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/" target=_blank>http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/</A><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 4<BR>Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:14:25 -0400<BR>From: Jim Henry <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=jimhenry1973@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:jimhenry1973@gmail.com">jimhenry1973@gmail.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE<BR>To: <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR>Message-ID:<BR> <<A
href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=8e02713f0906141714m3f2bf17dkb5deb92433d017ef@mail.gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:8e02713f0906141714m3f2bf17dkb5deb92433d017ef@mail.gmail.com">8e02713f0906141714m3f2bf17dkb5deb92433d017ef@mail.gmail.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1<BR><BR>On Sun, Jun 14, 2009 at 7:03 PM, Arthaey Angosii<<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthaey@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:arthaey@gmail.com">arthaey@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR>> English is my native language and Spanish is the only other language I<BR>> can hold a conversation in. So while my artlang Asha'ille is a priori,<BR>> I'm "concerned" that it adheres too closely to whatever makes IE<BR>> languages look IE.<BR><BR>I've just been reviewing your Asha'ille grammar, and I'd say that<BR>several important aspects of it -- the noun inflection, the<BR>indifferent marking of direct and indirect objects, the negative
verb<BR>inflection, the two optional verb marking systems with affixes vs.<BR>particles, and (especially) the deictic system are unlike any IE<BR>language I'm familiar with.<BR><BR>-- <BR>Jim Henry<BR><A href="http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/" target=_blank>http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/</A><BR><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 5<BR>Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:30:13 -0700 (PDT)<BR>From: Olivier Simon <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cafaristeir@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:cafaristeir@yahoo.com">cafaristeir@yahoo.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE<BR>To: <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR>Message-ID: <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=928955.28119.qm@web57403.mail.re1.yahoo.com"
ymailto="mailto:928955.28119.qm@web57403.mail.re1.yahoo.com">928955.28119.qm@web57403.mail.re1.yahoo.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Sellamat Arthaey !<BR>?<BR>I see that Jim has already given you a good answer, thus I've got little to add. <BR>It's good to put the vocabulary issue apart from the grammar issue. To speak simply, I would say there are two important criteria to characterize <BR><BR>--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Arthaey Angosii <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthaey@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:arthaey@gmail.com">arthaey@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR><BR>From: Arthaey Angosii <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthaey@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:arthaey@gmail.com">arthaey@gmail.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE<BR>To: <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org"
ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR>Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 4:03 PM<BR><BR><BR>English is my native language and Spanish is the only other language I<BR>can hold a conversation in. So while my artlang Asha'ille is a priori,<BR>I'm "concerned" that it adheres too closely to whatever makes IE<BR>languages look IE.<BR><BR>What are the defining characteristics of an Indo-European language,<BR>con- or natlang? (Apart from shared vocabulary/etymology, of course.)<BR>What grammatical features make a language IE-like? Are those features<BR>found also in non-IE languages?<BR><BR><BR>--<BR>AA<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>conlang_learners mailing list<BR><A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR><A
href="http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/conlang_learners-conlang.org" target=_blank>http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/conlang_learners-conlang.org</A><BR><BR><BR><BR> <BR>-------------- next part --------------<BR>An HTML attachment was scrubbed...<BR>URL: <<A href="http://lists.conlang.org/pipermail/conlang_learners-conlang.org/attachments/20090614/91dd691f/attachment-0001.htm" target=_blank>http://lists.conlang.org/pipermail/conlang_learners-conlang.org/attachments/20090614/91dd691f/attachment-0001.htm</A>><BR><BR>------------------------------<BR><BR>Message: 6<BR>Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:46:33 -0700 (PDT)<BR>From: Olivier Simon <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cafaristeir@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:cafaristeir@yahoo.com">cafaristeir@yahoo.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE<BR>To: <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org"
ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR>Message-ID: <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=91374.43466.qm@web57415.mail.re1.yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:91374.43466.qm@web57415.mail.re1.yahoo.com">91374.43466.qm@web57415.mail.re1.yahoo.com</A>><BR>Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"<BR><BR>Still those technical problems ! I hope Yahoo Mail is not against IE languages<BR>So, I told there are two criteria that can be used to characterize an IE grammar: <BR>- Presence of flexion (this criterium is common with Semitic). Even Modern IE languages still retain some traces. <BR>Examples: Eng. foot = plural: feet<BR>French: "mourir" (to die) = but "il meurt" (he dies)<BR>- The neutral gender has similar forms at the nominative and the accusative. This may come from the fact that Primeval IE had no Nominative for the neutral gender. <BR>?<BR>Some auxlangs can have their entire vocabulary
from IE but they may not fullfill these criteria. I think at Uropi which is not IE grammatically speaking. On the contrary C.Quil?s (of the Dnghu Project which aims a revival of Old IE) admitted that Sambahsa has a IE grammar. <BR>Sambahsa is, with Frenkish, the only auxlang which makes use of Ablauts (flexion within a stem) but in Sambahsa, this system is regular. <BR>?<BR>Jim was right to point out the difference between IE and "Standard Average European". <BR>?<BR>Personnally, I strove to include Sprachbund features into Sambahsa, from the SAE as well as from the Balkan Sprachbund. <BR>?<BR>Olivier<BR><A href="http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/" target=_blank>http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/</A> <BR><BR>--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Olivier Simon <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cafaristeir@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:cafaristeir@yahoo.com">cafaristeir@yahoo.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR><BR>From: Olivier Simon <<A
href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=cafaristeir@yahoo.com" ymailto="mailto:cafaristeir@yahoo.com">cafaristeir@yahoo.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE<BR>To: <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR>Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 10:30 PM<BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR><BR>Sellamat Arthaey !<BR>?<BR>I see that Jim has already given you a good answer, thus I've got little to add. <BR>It's good to put the vocabulary issue apart from the grammar issue. To speak simply, I would say there are two important criteria to characterize <BR><BR>--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Arthaey Angosii <<A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthaey@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:arthaey@gmail.com">arthaey@gmail.com</A>> wrote:<BR><BR><BR>From: Arthaey Angosii <<A
href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=arthaey@gmail.com" ymailto="mailto:arthaey@gmail.com">arthaey@gmail.com</A>><BR>Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE<BR>To: <A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR>Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 4:03 PM<BR><BR><BR>English is my native language and Spanish is the only other language I<BR>can hold a conversation in. So while my artlang Asha'ille is a priori,<BR>I'm "concerned" that it adheres too closely to whatever makes IE<BR>languages look IE.<BR><BR>What are the defining characteristics of an Indo-European language,<BR>con- or natlang? (Apart from shared vocabulary/etymology, of course.)<BR>What grammatical features make a language IE-like? Are those features<BR>found also in non-IE
languages?<BR><BR><BR>--<BR>AA<BR>_______________________________________________<BR>conlang_learners mailing list<BR><A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/conlang_learners-conlang.org" target=_blank>http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/conlang_learners-conlang.org</A><BR><BR><BR>-----Inline Attachment Follows-----<BR><BR><BR>_______________________________________________<BR>conlang_learners mailing list<BR><A href="http://uk.mc258.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=conlang_learners@conlang.org" ymailto="mailto:conlang_learners@conlang.org">conlang_learners@conlang.org</A><BR><A href="http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/conlang_learners-conlang.org" target=_blank>http://lists.conlang.org/listinfo.cgi/conlang_learners-conlang.org</A><BR><BR><BR><BR>
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