[conlang_learners] IE vs non IE

Sun Jun 14 02:29:00 PDT 2009

Sellamat Dayle ! 

I think we should be against IE, since it's a linguistic family known by half the world ! 
Of course, with sambahsa, I favour a very simplified kind of IE (choosing a IE grammar does not mean the exclusion of loanwords from outside IE; Parsi and Urdu are such languages)
Sambahsa does not rest on a "fantasy background", but you can read an external assessment: 
http://www.pagef30.com/2009/05/why-you-should-keep-your-eye-on.html

Olivier
http://sambahsa.pbworks.com/ 

--- On Sun, 6/14/09, Dayle Hill <dwhmusic32 at yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

From: Dayle Hill <dwhmusic32 at yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [conlang_learners] IE vs non IE
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Date: Sunday, June 14, 2009, 2:02 AM

Sorry, this is a re-send of the same email..had a technical hitch 1st time!

HI all. I have just joined in so forgive me for being a little ignorant. I just wondered why there seems to be a general consensus 'against' IE conlangs, or at least conlangs with IE features? Are we looking to learn something that has a grammar 'unlike' any natural language, or a conlang that has a completely unique lexicon? My own conlang, Dal'qörian 
HI all. I have just joined in so forgive me for being a little ignorant. I just wondered why there seems to be a general consensus 'against' IE conlangs, or at least conlangs with IE features? Are we looking to learn something that has a grammar 'unlike' any natural language, or a conlang that has a completely unique lexicon? My own conlang, Dal'qörian http://wiki.frath.net/Dal%27q%C3%B6rian  is IE in style, and has a fictional history based in the real world-but also has many unique features like so many of the conlangs out there. 
I'm just curious as to how we reach an agreement on this...will there be a vote to 'narrow down' IE vs non IE, Romance, Agglutinative, etc etc...or is it going to be based purely on a majority no matter what the style?
Thanks
Dayle. is IE in style, and has a fictional history based in the real world-but also has many unique features like so many of the conlangs out there. 
I'm just curious as to how we reach an agreement on this...will there be a vote to 'narrow down' IE vs non IE, Romance, Agglutinative, etc etc...or is it going to be based purely on a majority no matter what the style?
Thanks
Dayle.

"Can the future really be predicted? Even those who claim that they can, look both ways before they cross the road"!

--- On Sun, 14/6/09, conlang_learners-request at conlang.org <conlang_learners-request at conlang.org> wrote:

From: conlang_learners-request at conlang.org <conlang_learners-request at conlang.org>
Subject: conlang_learners Digest, Vol 1, Issue 11
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Date: Sunday, 14 June, 2009, 6:21 AM

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: ADMIN (?) (Roger Mills)
   2. My Thoughts (Daniel Jacobson)
   3. Re: ADMIN (?) (Arthaey Angosii)
   4. Re: Welcome,    and some proposals for what conlang     to learn
      (Jim Henry)
   5. Re: ADMIN (?) (Jim Henry)
   6. Re: Welcome,    and some proposals for what conlang     to learn
      (Jim Henry)
   7. Re: ADMIN (?) (Roger Mills)
   8. Re: Thoughts (Jim Henry)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 15:51:49 -0400
From: "Roger Mills" <rfmilly at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] ADMIN (?)
To: <conlang_learners at conlang.org>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV37A4B69370C505215362FAC400 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

(Re failure of links in my emails to be highlighted/clickable)

Thanks for your reply, Arthaey.......
Well, this is very confusing. I've been sending msgs to Conlang Learners via 
Windows Live Hotmail-- where I see there's a little icon to insert a 
hyperlink; it works. I simply wasn't aware of it until now as it seems to me 
that in the past (when I used WLH and this addr. for Conlang) I didn't have 
to do that.....

I'm sending this msg. via Outlook Express, let's see if OE can do it without 
that extra step--
http://cinduworld.tripod.com/foucault.pdf

Yes it can!!!   waddayaknow...........

Quo usque tandem abutere, O Microsoft, nostra patientia? 

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:12:22 -0700
From: Daniel Jacobson <mustanghockey10 at hotmail.com>
Subject: [conlang_learners] My Thoughts
To: <conlang_learners at conlang.org>
Message-ID: <SNT120-W92F8EBAE928FBE1F08243AA400 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

Hi everyone,

I decided to join in on this project because as it turns out I just don't seem to have the

energy to create a conlang of my own and would rather help bring one already created

to life, so to speak. I'm committed to learning one (of the two, if we do have 2 different

groups after all) languages that is selected, but I'd prefer a language not already connected

with a conculture, as I kinda hope to be able to use the language to write in it without 

having to also know the culture. I've taken a preliminary look at some of the languages

mentioned and I like what I see in Vabungula and Vorlin especially, but it's a long time until

September so I have an open mind right now. I also would prefer something with a non-IE

grammar, although that's not crucial for me.

-Daniel J.

_________________________________________________________________
Insert movie times and more without leaving Hotmail?. 
http://windowslive.com/Tutorial/Hotmail/QuickAdd?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_HM_Tutorial_QuickAdd_062009
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Message: 3
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 14:58:33 -0700
From: Arthaey Angosii <arthaey at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] ADMIN (?)
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Message-ID:
    <fee2da410906131458g777b7354q112ba68b878c40fb at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Roger Mills<rfmilly at msn.com> wrote:
> (Re failure of links in my emails to be highlighted/clickable)

My guess is that both Hotmail and Outlook default to HTML email, so
you can create clickable links.

The difference is probably that Outlook notices things that look like
URLs as you type them and turns them into links for you. Whereas
Hotmail makes you explicitly click its hyperlink icon to turn it into
a link.

--
AA

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 23:26:59 -0400
From: Jim Henry <jimhenry1973 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] Welcome,    and some proposals for what
    conlang     to learn
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Message-ID:
    <8e02713f0906132026n46fc0372s4ef5961f0835c0b8 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

2009/6/13 Alexandre Baudry <abaudry at hotmail.com>:
>> From: 0zu149 at gmx.de

> Me too, I am very impressed by Ilaksh and Ithkuil. It seems that these

Learning Ilaksh or Ithkuil would be daunting, but also wonderfully
cool.   They wouldn't be my first-ranked choices among the conlangs
people have mentioned so far -- my preference would be for a conlang
whose speakability has already been somewhat proven by its
creator -- but if one of John Quijada's conlangs is the consensus
winner of an IRV ballot I would not be at all displeased or inclined
to drop out because of the apparent difficulty of learning them.

>> Does someone know whether ressources on Fith still exist?

http://www.langmaker.com/fith.htm

A lot of pages on langmaker seem to be broken, but the Fith
subsection seems OK.

>> > I have nothing against artlangs, but it seems that two lists is better
>> > than one.
>> >
>> Not sure whether it is smart to think about 'riva... err, splitting up now
>> already. It would weaken the idea of the community.
>
> No rivality, just different wishes.

Let's postpone deciding about that for now.   We can discuss
various possible conlangs to learn, and then collect IRV-type
ballots ranking or rating the various conlangs people are
interested in learning; given those ballots, we can analyze the
set of preferences and see if all learning one conlang or splitting
into two or even three groups would maximize average voter
satisfaction, as Sai suggested.

There are over 40 subscribers to this list.  Even if only half
of us stick with the project long enough to start learning
a conlang we pick, dividing into two groups may still leave
groups large enough to be viable.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 23:44:43 -0400
From: Jim Henry <jimhenry1973 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] ADMIN (?)
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Message-ID:
    <8e02713f0906132044g533fe5dataad92a5f42d0df2f at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Arthaey Angosii<arthaey at gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Roger Mills<rfmilly at msn.com> wrote:
>> (Re failure of links in my emails to be highlighted/clickable)
>
> My guess is that both Hotmail and Outlook default to HTML email, so
> you can create clickable links.

However, if I'm not mistaken, I have the settings for
this mailing list such that when people send HTML
email to the list, it gets converted to plain text before
being sent to all the list members.

I could turn that off if there's a general demand for
it, but I would prefer not to.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Sat, 13 Jun 2009 23:50:59 -0400
From: Jim Henry <jimhenry1973 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] Welcome,    and some proposals for what
    conlang     to learn
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Message-ID:
    <8e02713f0906132050r2c0217cv7745be16bac2df54 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 12:23 PM, Mechthild Czapp<0zu149 at gmx.de> wrote:

>> > Not sure whether it is smart to think about 'riva... err, splitting up
>> now already.

> 'riva just means 'to split up in 2 parts/to fork' it was one of the times when I thought of the rejistanian word before the English or German one, and I just wanted to share that blunder ;)

A few days ago, at the supper the night before my
cousin's wedding, some of our friend and relations
were talking about use of PDAs and computers vs.
paper notebooks, index cards, etc.  My uncle (the
bride's father) said something about preferring index
cards or a portable small notebook to a PDA, and
I unthinkingly said "? mew" (gzb: "Me too"), taking
a couple of  index cards [with notes on Taruven's
inflectional suffixes, for preparing for the inverse relay]
from my pocket.   I was immediately embarrassed
by my inappropriate code-switching, but nobody
seemed to notice or mind; perhaps the gesture
made the meaning of what I said clear enough,
and there was enough background noise that they
assumed I had actually said "me too" and it sounded
weird because of the noise of other conversations
at neighboring tables.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 00:02:05 -0400
From: "Roger Mills" <rfmilly at msn.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] ADMIN (?)
To: <conlang_learners at conlang.org>
Message-ID: <BAY102-DAV4D8B631DEE7E71C318228AC410 at phx.gbl>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
    reply-type=original

Jim Henry wrote:

> On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 5:58 PM, Arthaey Angosii<arthaey at gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 12:51 PM, Roger Mills<rfmilly at msn.com> wrote:
>>> (Re failure of links in my emails to be highlighted/clickable)
>>
>> My guess is that both Hotmail and Outlook default to HTML email, so
>> you can create clickable links.
>
> However, if I'm not mistaken, I have the settings for
> this mailing list such that when people send HTML
> email to the list, it gets converted to plain text before
> being sent to all the list members.

The msg. I sent via OE (with a url correctly highlighted) went thru OK, so 
it seems to be no longer a problem for my end.........

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Sun, 14 Jun 2009 01:21:46 -0400
From: Jim Henry <jimhenry1973 at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [conlang_learners] Thoughts
To: conlang_learners at conlang.org
Message-ID:
    <8e02713f0906132221x63ee2849o99434f7b9d5b6a81 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Sat, Jun 13, 2009 at 7:46 AM, Wayne S. Rossi<felianan at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> --- On Sat, 6/13/09, Eugene Oh <un.doing at gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> We probably shouldn't use such
>> subjective criteria in judging the conlangs we have here.
>> "Ugly" and "well-made" differ from
>> person to person, and are potentially insulting.
>> Eugene
>
> I don't entirely agree. ?I think that a lot of what will be needed in the project of actually learning a language is going to be having a subjective attraction to it.

There's a difference between using subjective criteria to judge
conlangs -- that's more or less inevitable because objective criteria
are only applicable to engelangs and in some respects to auxlangs, and
even there, the selection of a particular set of objective criteria is
itself subjective -- and expressing the results of one's judgment in a
potentially insulting way.  The latter verges on flaming, which is not
allowed here or on any well-moderated list.

The odds of S.A. MacLagan finding this list, readings its archives,
and being insulted by Olivier's comment are slim, given that he's
apparently dropped off the net some years ago.  And I'd like to avoid
moderating this list with too heavy a hand -- still, let's avoid
describing specific conlangs as ugly *tout court*, whether the creator
of said conlang is a member of this list or not.

-- 
Jim Henry
http://www.pobox.com/~jimhenry/

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